2009 Trade Deadline Preview: Pittsburgh Pirates
by Charlie on Jul 15, 2009 10:35 PM EDT
33 comments
Buyers or sellers?
Sellers, just like every year. The Bucs have already been very active this trading season, shipping Nate McLouth to Atlanta for outfielder Gorkys Hernandez and pitchers Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke; sending Nyjer Morgan and Sean Burnett to the Nats for Lastings Milledge and Joel Hanrahan; and passing Eric Hinske to the Yankees for catcher Eric Fryer and pitcher Casey Erickson. The Bucs got younger in all three deals and should continue to do so before the deadline.
Short-term need
The Pirates don't have enough talent to worry much about short-term need. They might, however, seek a young middle infielder or two if Freddy Sanchez or Jack Wilson are traded, because of the inadequacy of all the potential internal replacements (including Ramon Vazquez, Brian Bixler, and Luis Cruz) for those two. Cruz is worthless at the plate, and replacing Sanchez or Wilson with Vazquez or Bixler would turn a good team defense into a mediocre one, which might be a problem for a team trying to develop a number of young pitchers.
Long-term need
Talent. Starters, relievers, batters, bakers, candlestick makers, you name it. The organization that team president Frank Coonelly and GM Neal Huntington inherited less than two years ago lacked talent not only at the major league level, but in the minors as well. In the trades they've made so far, Coonelly and Huntington have grabbed talent without much regard for position or specific organizational need. With the possible exception of the Sanchez/Wilson provision above, that won't change.
Big leaguers on the market
Sanchez and Wilson are signed through 2009 with options for 2010. Sanchez is 31, has a colorful injury history and is having one of his best seasons, so he'd be a great player to deal if the Bucs can find a team willing to buy high, perhaps the Rockies or Giants. First baseman Adam LaRoche and lefty reliever John Grabow are free agents after this season, so the Pirates would surely trade them, but there hasn't been much of a market for LaRoche so far. The Bucs have also probably had enough of starting pitcher Ian Snell, who lost break on his slider, got bombed all season, and then requested and received a demotion to the minors. Snell is signed through 2010, with team options for 2011 and 2012.
Minor league strength
The low levels of the minors, from Class A West Virginia down to the Dominican and Venezuelan teams--you know, the ones where Coonelly and Huntington acquired most of the players--are fairly well stocked with prospects, but the upper three levels (despite the presence of third baseman Pedro Alvarez and pitcher Brad Lincoln) are a bit thin. Several of the most talented players who are at the upper levels (Hernandez, Locke, outfielder Jose Tabata) were acquired by Coonelly and Huntington. This month, look for them to continue to try to fatten the upper levels of the system.
Take on short-term money to win?
Obviously not. But claims that the Pirates are merely dumping salaries have probably been overblown by fans and the Pittsburgh media. While no one but the parties involved can know the team's true motivations for trading many of its best-known players over the past year, the Bucs' new front office has made viable (if not always spectacular, or always successful) baseball trades, and their actions have been suggested they're willing to take some short-term lumps in order to follow through with the type of genuine rebuilding for which the Cam Bonifay and Dave Littlefield administrations lacked the stomach.
If nothing else, Coonelly and Huntington certainly have shown a willingness to anger the Pirates' dwindling fanbase. This month, they'll probably make a couple more unpopular moves, but if the Bucs are lucky, the fans could end up thanking Coonelly and Huntington later.
For more coverage of the Pirates, check out Bucs Dugout.
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Two straight Pirates posts, and for all the wrong reasons...
Are these previews going to be done in any specific order?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
As for a specific order, probably not, but I’m doing the NL Central and AL West.
The report that Yates needs TJ surgery is a perfectly relevant reason to post. And why would the Pirates, who’ve already been as active on the trade market as any other team and are very likely to continue to be active, be a bad team to start with?
Just saying, it's sad that they are so active in the trade market as sellers every year it seems.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
How many times do you have to be told
The Rockies have zero interest in Freddy Sanchez. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada. Clint Barmes is outperforming Sanchez this year, at about 1/5 the cost. And the Rockies know that.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
This is my first post here. I don’t know where you could possibly have told me, unless you went to Bucs Dugout and did it. In the meantime, though, the two big Pittsburgh papers have both reported the Rockies and Bucs have had talks regarding Sanchez. One of the reporters who went with the story, Dejan Kovacevic, has a very good reputation for being circumspect with trade rumors. I didn’t make this up.
My apologies (sorta)
When I say “you”, I’m referring to the collective (mostly Pittsburgh media types) who seem to have a hardon for insisting on either claiming the Rox have any interest in Sanchez, or trying to drum up the illusion of multiple suitors for a player with a large salary and balky back.
And both of those papers are abjectly incorrect, the Rockies have come out and said they have no interest in Sanchez. I know you’re not making up the rumors — but the rumors are entirely made up out of thin air.
I understand those things happen, but in this particular case, what galls me about them is that they reveal the abject ignorance of the P’burgh writers, because even the most rudimentary checking would reveal that the Rox are getting 2B performance at or above Sanchez’ level at 1/5th the cost (and better defense than Sanchez).
Jim Tracy installed Clint Barmes as his guy at 2B, and Barmes has hit over 300 since that time with some pop, and he’s well established as an upgrade defensively.
Sanchez is a useful player, just not to the Rox, and the Rox have never had any interest. Now, it wouldn’t surprise me if they probably do have some minor interest in Capps, but both of those writers are up a tree and guilty of extremely lazy reporting. Don’t you find it the least bit odd that none of those whispers came out of any Denver reporters?
I do apologize for my overgeneralization, however.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Frankie says 'Relax'!
Take a pill or something, Buddy! You need to relax. Keep in mind two things: 1) Sanchez won the NL batting title while starting at 3B, where the “Rox” are incredibly soft. There is no reason to think he couldn’t be moved there again. 2) Jim Tracy’s last job was manager of the Pirates, so it’s reasonable to think he developed an affinity for Sanchez.
Colorado is the most likely scenario if Sanchez is to be traded. And Eric Young Jr. is the most appetizing return for the Pirates out there. Colorado needs him (albeit, at 3B). The Bucs need something the Rox got. I like the chances of this trade happening in some form.
You can come back and apologize to Charlie after it happens.
There is zero percent chance the Rox trade EYJr for Sanchez
Where are the Rox “incredibly soft” at 3B? Ian Stewart’s BA is certainly low, but he takes a lot of walks and hits a lot of HRs. Atkins has actually hit around .300 over the last month. And the Rockies aren’t taking on $8m of salary…sure, you can unload Sanchez on the Rox….in exchange for Atkins, straight up, yo.
The Pirates’ need to salary dump is not the Rockies problem. The Rockies have also come out and said they have no interest in Sanchez. I’ll take the word of Dan O’Dowd over some hack writer in Pittsburgh, sorry.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
by Mondogarage on Jul 16, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
And I'll take.....
UZR ratings over your view as to who is better defensively.
Clint Barmes??
Do you really think you’re set with Clint Barmes? Let’s be honest, he’s had a career year so far and most likely will regress back to a league average 2B/SS (or worse, since its not that he’s that far beyond it right now). You have a realistic shot at playoffs and you think you’re ‘fine’ because you have Clint Barmes and anyone that suggests otherwise is drumming up crazy rumors. You probably think Jim Tracy is a great skipper and reason for the turnaround too, huh? So… if given the opportunity to grab an deserving AS and honest to goodness upgrade for a speedy but unproven prospect…. you better hope O’Dowd pulls the trigger. It’s the ‘burgers that should be questioning the ROI here and I personally don’t think its enough.
by 16andCounting on Jul 16, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My apologies for my late response
I was distracted watching Clint Barmes hit a 3-run jack in that bandbox they call Petco Park, where fly balls go to die.
I’m saying that prorated $8m +$10m for Sanchez, versus $1.5m for Barmes is ludicrous given the relatively minor gap between a player who isn’t that much better than Barmes, and isn’t as versatile defensively. And I’m saying that repeated “rumors” coming from P’burgh about such a trade, days and days after any such speculation has been explicitly shot down, is even more ludicrous.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
by Mondogarage on Jul 17, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
If by "outperforming" you mean
has more home runs, then you are correct. They have identical slugging percentage, but Freddy is hitting and reaching base at a 35 point higher clip. Freddy also strikes out less and steals bases at a better rate. I don’t know how Barmes plays defense but Freddy is top 3 at 2B I believe and can also play 3B if needed. Price, otoh, is in Clint’s favor.
the cards need sanchez in the worst way. it solves so many problems. sanchez goes in at short, b-ry takes over second, skip-to-my-lou goes back to his natural outfield position. de-ro holds steady at third when he comes back. the defense will stop looking like s*** and we could use the added speed and average in the lineup. if that happens we will cease to have two gaping holes on both sides of the dish without breaking the bank (ie holliday, halliday). i believe our pitching is sound enough considering the fifth starter will not be used in the playoffs. it even leaves room for a doug davis type.
"A slick way to out-figure a person is to get him figuring you figure he's figuring you're figuring he'll figure you aren't really figuring what you want him to figure you figure." ~ Whitey Herzog
I thought DeRosa was out for the year?
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
Fun times
I am kind of excited to see how the Pirates fare this trade season. They have made many great moves in the past 18 months in my opinion and are on their way to improving the organization.
I dont think they can get a major “haul” for either Sanchez or Wilson, but as you say they can get younger and cheaper for sure. I say trade them for the best you can get. Id love to see the Giants or Cards pick up Sanchez, heck the Cards could use Wilson too.
Pirate fans have to be able to see the future and know that the organization is on the right track. If they wind up landing Sano and can sign some of those late round slot busters from the draft they could be 3 to 4 years away from the playoffs.
1991
Zane Smith for two organizational players and Moses Alou
Well, technically they bought Matt Morris in 2007, but that was one of the dumbest ideas of all time.
You should have even mentioned that Charlie
How embarrassing!!!!!
Barmes "outperforming" Sanchez????
For mondo to say that Barmes is outperforming Freddy is simply not true.
Barmes has +10 RBI but Freddy has +16 hits.
Sanchez has better OBP, the same SLG and better AVG.
He’s even proven to be a much better baserunner (5-of-6 SB vs. Barmes bad % of 7-of-12)
And Sanchez has been play extremely well defensively this season.
Not to mention
Sanchez 2.4 WAR
Barmes 1.8 WAR
Advantage Sanchez, but not enough of one to trade prospects to replace him if you are the Rockies.
.6 WAR simply isn't worth a 5x higher salary this season and a $10m option that will lock in
Like I said, we’ll take Sanchez if you take Atkins. The Rox aren’t interested in someone else’s salary dump, particularly when it does not provide significant benefit to the club.
My bigger issue, frankly, is with Daily Dish simply repeated old rumors that have already been completely debunked, without even attempted to check the veracity. It’s simply lazy blogging.
backtocali put it best, frankly. Sanchez may be marginally better (I don’t consider .6 WAR more than marginal, especially considering he seems to have a balky back), but he is not worth taking on the salary and giving up an actual prospect of any quality at all.
You can have Greg Reynolds for him. Maybe. None of that changes the fact that the Rockies general manager came out 2-3 days ago and said they have no interest in Sanchez in any circumstance - which is my entire point.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
by Mondogarage on Jul 16, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and about that baserunning
Courtesy of Jabberwocky over at the Purple Row:
One avenue of offensive success that I hadn’t previously considered is good baserunning—but luckily, Beyond the Boxscore has. Sky Kalkman opines that the Rockies have the best baserunning in MLB, good for 14 runs above average (or 1.4 extra wins)—four more runs above the next highest team (Florida). Considering that last year Minnesota led the league with 16.1 RAA, this number really is spectacular.
Note that these numbers are for live baserunning only, eliminating stolen bases and caught stealing from the equation as they are already included in most other run scoring metrics. Here’s the individual rankings by team.
I was mildly surprised by this ranking (especially by the fact that Clint Barmes was rated our top baserunner) but it looks like this team is taking full advantage of getting on base. As Kalkman says, it’s another talking point in the “Rockies-for-the-playoffs” campaign.
Baserunning isn’t all about stolen bases.
And having interest in a salary dump trade candidate isn’t solely about UZR and WAR. The marginal cost of this particular 0.6 WAR is extreme. And Sanchez can’t effectively fill in at SS as well as Barmes at this point in Sanchez’ career. Barmes is more valuable to the Rox for his versatility, in a way that Sanchez simply is not. And Barmes has what…nearly twice the HRs as Sanchez in less ABs.
Does that make Barmes > Sanchez? No, but to argue that Sanchez is heads and shoulders above Barmes is silly. Oh, but wait….he was an ALL-STAR. Oh yeah, I forgot that part.
Frankly, if the salaries were anywhere near similar, it would not be a bad trade, but Sanchez’ contract is a bad contract in nearly any circumstance. And when you already have an effective 2B at 20% of the cost for…let’s say 95% of the performance, it is a bad trade.
Watching the purple row from high atop the big brown monolith on California Ave
Giants don't appear to be willing to "buy high."
I have nothing but my intuition and the fact that I can read the newspaper to back that up, but I don’t see them overpaying.
In favor of that possibility: the Giants’ recent trade history. But, it appears there has been a positive change in organizational approach to roster building.
I don’t see them paying much. They might trade for Sanchez, but won’t overpay. Or buy high. Or whatever.
BP
Baseball Prosepctus (Christine….cant remember last name) threw out there LaRoche and Sanchez for Tim Alderson.
I am a Giants fan, and would hate to see them deal prospects to get a one year playoff run/push, but a deal like the one mentioned above would definitely be worth Alderson. I had a post a while back over there about Alderson possibly being moved for bats this offseason and was not recieved quite well.
Of the Giants big prospects, Alderson is the one who is most expendable. He pitches backwards, working off of his curveball, and the rest of his stuf is just average. I see a Giants move for bats involving Alderson a lot like the Brewers dealing Will Inman a couple of years ago, I did not see it as a major loss.
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